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標題: 三地鼠應該用攻專還是命玉？(英文) [打印本頁]
作者: anteater    時間: 17/6/2008 11:42 AM
標題: 三地鼠應該用攻專還是命玉？(英文)
轉載自：
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17835

Why Dugtrio really needs to get a Life Orb?

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Ok, you just lost a pokemon to my Heracross's Choice Banded Megahorn. But you don't care, you have your own CBer waiting in the wings: Dugtrio! You don't feel dirty using Duggy for a skill-less revenge-kill — after all, Heracross would be near-broken if it weren't for Dugtrio, right?

So you kill it with Aerial Ace, happy to be done with it Hera for the rest of the battle. Annoyed, I send in Tyranitar to deal a heavy Choice Banded Blow to one of your pokemon.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Aerial Ace on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 9-11%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Aerial Ace on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 10-12%

My mistake, you're not staying in, you're switching out after your awesome, zero-prediction kill. What was I thinking?

Adamant 403 Attack Tyranitar's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 182-214%

Yeah, that's what. Different battle, my CB Tyra's Stone Edge takes out your Suicune on the switch. No worries, Duggy's CBed Earthquake to the rescue, right? Out goes my fainted Tyranitar. In comes my CB Heracross. You're switching, right?

Adamant, 383 Attack Heracross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 115-135%

This is your only option:

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/186Def (4EVs/min) Heracross: 37-43%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/186Def Heracross (4EVs/min): 40-47%


Hmmm. Kind of cheap and annoying, huh? But if Dugtrio doesn't want a taste of its own medicine from Heracross and Tyranitar, and in DP, it is going to "need" Life Orb, or this can and will happen every time it kills something with "the wrong move". Now, I just happen to have both Tyranitar and Heracross on the team I posted here a few weeks ago. But they, of course, aren't the only pokemon in DP on which Pursuit will be a popular option, Choice Banded or not.

Say you kill Heracross with AA again, or maybe Blade Test a Celebi, smugly satisfied that maybe you're not missing your physical HP Bug after all. In comes Metagross. Or Weavile.

Adamant, 405 Attack Metagross's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 122-143%
Jolly, 339 Attack Weavile's Choice Banded Pursuit on a switching, 211HP/136Def (min/min) Dugtrio: 153-180%

Weavile is particularly interesting because it is faster than Dugtrio (125 base speed vs 120), and will do 77-90% to Dugtrio even if it doesn't switch. Incidentally, Life Orb Dugtrio would kill it with Stone Edge (Jolly 254Atk LO Duggy's EQ does a coincidental 77-90% on a 281HP/166Def [min/min] Weavile), but they will know you're equipped with Life Orb because of your first kill, and know things like their Blissey is now not 2HKOed by its EQ, etc, etc.

I think Pursuit Heracross, Tyranitar and Metagross are reason enough to consider the consequences of Choice Band on Dugtrio, a much-whored and -maligned pokemon in competitive battle in Advance. And, therefore, to consider the pros and cons of the 1.3× boost granted to pokemon via Life Orb, at the expense — in comparison to Choice Band — of considerable power and 10% of your HP with every blow you deal but with the allotment of the freedom of, well, choice. But I'm only one person, so, I ask you Smogoners: is it worth it to use Life Orb on Dugtrio?

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Life Orb should be used on Duggy only until Pursuit loses popularity. Then CB Duggy should return until Pursuit comes back. Cycle infinetely throughout time.

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EEK! I knew Pursuit T-tar would be some kind of devilish fiend sent from hell to exterminate any kind of CB'er, I just knew it!

Also, dont use so much spaces, it makes reading somewhat hard.

This might sound like a super Joke [there was one actualy, in some1's sig] but... 2 Duggies in one team might be used...
  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Pyr0  
EEK! I knew Pursuit T-tar would be some kind of devilish fiend sent from hell to exterminate any kind of CB'er, I just knew it!

Also, dont use so much spaces, it makes reading somewhat hard.

This might sound like a super Joke [there was one actualy, in some1's sig] but... 2 Duggies in one team might be used...

Another LOL would be having a Trick Room team with both Dugtrio and Trapinch, just to be super-annoying.

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As far as competitive battle goes, Species Clause is strictly enforced.

Spaces are to set calculations apart from the text but you do have a point

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight  
Life Orb should be used on Duggy only until Pursuit loses popularity. Then CB Duggy should return until Pursuit comes back. Cycle infinetely throughout time.

For now, I think this is what is going to happen in D/P.

Of course it's all a matter of high risk, high reward. CB Dugtrio puts you under the risk of being given a taste of your own medicine, while Life Orb Dugtrio eliminates the chance of that happening. Life Orb Duggy will have less attack power as a cost. It will depend on the player's style I think.

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I'd say Life Orb over Choice Band depends to a large extent on the rest of your team.

If you've got one of those "let's kill Blissey as soon as possible" special sweeper teams, then you'll need the extra power of CB to finish her.

Whereas if you have problems with the Pursuit users you mentioned, you'd want Life Orb so they don't get a free hit or revenge kill.

Also, the shortness of the original post is disappointing. 50 - 60 more damage calculations and an essay on Salamence and/or Tyranitar would solve this.

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Two questions-

1. How much does Life Orb increase Attack damage by?

2. Since Beautiful Skin hasn't been mentioned, does Arena Trap still prevent BS' holder from switching out?

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1) 1.3x damage
2) Beautiful Skin allows escape from ALL trap abilities (Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat freaktron  
Two questions-

1. How much does Life Orb increase Attack damage by? 1.3x

2. Since Beautiful Skin hasn't been mentioned, does Arena Trap still prevent BS' holder from switching out? Since the Beautiful Skin works on Magnet Pull for Steel types, then theoretically it should work for Arena Trap (and Shadow Tag, but that's not the topic at hand)

I agree with Phuquoph. If Dugtrio is a Blissey killer, and that's all it does, then CB. If it's there as a revenge killer in general, Life Orb.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat leafgreen386  
With duggy and maggy support, and when your opponent's only poke left is Heracross, it RAPES WHOLE TEAMS.

^^ in reference to Curse Skarmory  

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Pursuit has other uses apart from killing dugtrio of course..

Also often Dugtrio doesnt really need to kill two pokemon to be a huge boost to your team, and often sacrificing it is better than taking the free hit on one of your other pokes.. But I guess in that regard lifeorb is safer again, as leaving Dugtio in AAing against Tyranitar is a good way to get swept..

However the drop in damage is gonna hurt a lot.. Good luck killing Celebi, Blissey or finishing off a rester..

I think if I run Dugtrio I might actually try life orb, you have convinced me.. But I am currently intending to use pursuit Weavile as a replacement.

Have a nice day.

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The use of Pursuit won't lead to more Life Orb Dugtrios. It will lead to less Dugtrio usage overall. Being 2 for 1'd time and time again will make people realize that the occasional revenge kill isn't really worth it.

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Well If you want Revenge Killers, I invite you guys to see my "Rush Sweeping Thread" and see my Donkarasu Revenge Killah! [Godfather style =P]

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I could see beautiful skin used on a mixtar, though life orb is very attractive if duggie isn't too much of a presence. Possibly Infernape too since it already has multiple STAB 120 BP moves and SD/scheme to kick ass. Heracross needs better items though, either it doesn't have enough speed or enough power.

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Figured this out a long time ago. I always put Life Orb on Dugtrio.

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how much does a life orb dugtrio actually do to tyranitar(401hp) with quake

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Adamant: 284 attack vs 256 defense, 100 power(* 3.9): 314 - 370
Jolly: 259 attack vs 256 defense, 100 power(* 3.9): 285 - 335

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as there are several new sets and new threats for blissey. Is there a blissey, life orb duggy is able to 2HKO?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat KiMeS  
as there are several new sets and new threats for blissey. Is there a blissey, life orb duggy is able to 2HKO?

Adamant, max Attack Duggy with Life Orb will do 34-40% to min HP, max Def Blissey with a neutral nature. And Blissey will probably still be Bold with some HP EVs.

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This didn't really convince me to use Life Orb on Dugtrio. It just convinced me to put Pursuit on both Heracross and Tyranitar. I still think Choice Band isn't a bad thing at all, it still kills Blissey and Tyranitar and Metagross more efficiently. I may just not use Dugtrio at all aside from taking out Blissey (also because it's gay).

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Life Orb Dugtrio set:

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Jolly (+Speed, -SA)
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4HP
~ Earthquake
~ Aerial Ace
~ Blade Test/Stone Edge
~ Protect

What you do is make the kill, then use Protect to see if they are going to Pursuit or not. If its a CB version and they use Pursuit, you know you are owned and can act accordingly. If they use another attack, you can use the opening to escape unharmed. This sort of falls apart with Non-CB versions that have Pursuit, but it allows Duggy to glimpse into the foe's movepool and see what their plan is. Removing Dugtrio is usually a big priority for many teams.

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Still wouldn't put Life Orb on Dugtrio, I just wouldn't use Dugtrio. I don't think it's worth it to go down to 1.3x damage *and* lose HP just to try and hit everything that tries to counter you.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat tenchi17  
Still wouldn't put Life Orb on Dugtrio, I just wouldn't use Dugtrio. I don't think it's worth it to go down to 1.3x damage *and* lose HP just to try and hit everything that tries to counter you.

Duggy dies if it takes a hit anyway, I'd rather get 10 attacks out of it and kill 2 pokemon than use CB, kill one, and get revenge pwned.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Misty  
Figured this out a long time ago. I always put Life Orb on Dugtrio.

Yeah, I remember the "am i cool?" team rate that you posted had LO Duggy on it but there has been little explanation behind why it's a viable option from Duggy's offensive perspective and, of course, no explanation from this defensive one =D


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah  
This didn't really convince me to use Life Orb on Dugtrio. It just convinced me to put Pursuit on both Heracross and Tyranitar. I still think Choice Band isn't a bad thing at all, it still kills Blissey and Tyranitar and Metagross more efficiently. I may just not use Dugtrio at all aside from taking out Blissey (also because it's gay).

And you know I agree 100% since you know I hate Duggy about as much as you and wouldn't use it in the first place lol. I didn't even have Pursuit on my CB Tar until I thought of this, even though I figured EQ/FP wouldn't be used anywhere near as much as Crunch/SE (FP is more expendable imo as it pretty much only hits faster normal types harder since you're staying in on Blissey and Lax to Crunch/SE again)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight  
Life Orb Dugtrio set:

Dugtrio @ Life Orb
Jolly (+Speed, -SA)
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Speed/4HP
~ Earthquake
~ Aerial Ace
~ Blade Test/Stone Edge
~ Protect

What you do is make the kill, then use Protect to see if they are going to Pursuit or not. If its a CB version and they use Pursuit, you know you are owned and can act accordingly. If they use another attack, you can use the opening to escape unharmed. This sort of falls apart with Non-CB versions that have Pursuit, but it allows Duggy to glimpse into the foe's movepool and see what their plan is. Removing Dugtrio is usually a big priority for many teams.

I'm glad you've given this some thought and contributed, but you're forgetting one key thing: when you make a kill with Life Orb, you take 10% HP damage that your opponent can see, in many ways tipping your hand more than Choice Band would since its power grants you a OHKO on Hera regardless and CB Tyranitar if it's under 74% HP (assuming a 254Atk Duggy). I would think that if your opponent is smart enough to use Pursuit in this manner, he is observant enough to notice the recoil damage you took and be a little more cautious in general. Protect isn't too bad an idea in general on Duggy to scout what your opponent is going to use, but it probably won't work in the manner you're suggesting.

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How about something like Concentration Band (ups physical moves by 10%), Soft Sand or Expert Belt (ups super effective moves by 10%)?

Bluff your opponent into thinking Dugtrio is Choice Banded since you won't be losing health like you will with Life Orb. Can't OHKO Tyranitar (which you can't with Life Orb either), but you may lure it in after an Aerial Ace and can at least severely weaken it of finish it if it's taken previous damage.

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Then you're woefully underpowered. Even Soft Sand may not be enough to finish something off ;[
      
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Actually, it does 76-90% to TTar.

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I don't mind the recoil that much that I would resort to 10%. But the combination of cutting short on killing Tyranitar, Metagross, Blissey and stuff AND getting myself into many, many more KO ranges (think Blissey Ice Beam)...that's just annoying as hell.

Though I must say I am quite fond of this "discovery" in general, because it means you can actually do something about people repeatly killing my stuff with Dugtrio and switching out for free.

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With Life Orb comes the issue of, with Duggy's low Attack, will Life Orb be able to 1hko many Pokemon that it could before?

If the answer is NO, then it's not worth it. With low Defenses, and low HP, whatever doesn't die by its attacks will kill it, unless the opponent has AG Thunderbolt, inwhich EQ should kill the (most likely electric type), user anyways, unless its Porygon2/Z, or Zapdos.

If it can kill at least 50% of what It could before, then it's really up for debate.

If no, then CBand it is. The real good thing about Dugtrio is that it's ability really supports CBand. Seriously. The foe is stuck until either it or DUgtrio dies, or unless it is a Flyer/Levitator. Sure Dugtrio may have to switch out, especially with the abundance of new Flying/Levitators who can freely switch in and out, but for the most part SEdge/Srock will make the opponent choose more wisely.

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Thank you Jumpman16 for your sardonic report on how bad Dugtrio has gotten between generations. Okay, so now Dugtrio will be far less prevalent. Established. What I would like to request of somebody with more time for research on their hands is this: Who could useful for revenge killings in D/P? I think someone should start a thread. Just don't make me do it, because I can't put up with morons who argue with me.

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Expert Belt I believe ups super effective moves 20%, by the way.

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Dugtrio is one of the few things that can stop Infernerape for that reason alone i see it staying OU.

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Yeah, I think it's more a question of how much you care about being owned by other Pursuit users if you've completed your main objective, be it taking out Blissey or Hera/Tyra or even Modest Raikou.

Expert Belt probably wouldn't be worth it when you realize things like you're only doing 31-36% against standard IB Blissey (~688HP/130Def), 34-40% to Gabby (359HP/226Def) and, humoruosly enough, that you actually fail to KO a max health enemy Dugtrio about a ¼ of the time (254Atk Jolly Duggy EQ against 211HP/136Def Dugtrio does 96-113%). Unless we want to argue that much of Dugtrio's purpose comes from its ability to perform revenge kills, this would be a distinct argument against Expert Belt.

As far as Soft Sand goes, I input some numbers into a calucator to get other numbers and I am now going to post those other numbers, like right now (yes right below this):

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's (Soft Sand) Aerial Ace on a 302HP/186Def (4EVs/min) Heracross: 80-94%

This is a big deal, of course, unless Heracrosses Defense has been lowered via In Fight. Life Orb would probably be the best option on Dugtrio if you're not using Choice Band, since it really, really isn't going to be able to preform more than two kills regardless of what item it uses.

Here are some more, very important numbers to keep in mind (assuming that for whatever reason you're all not committing each and every one of my posts to memory). The standard Dugtrio in Advance had 254 attack Jolly and 279 Attack Adamant to allow it to reach, with 228 Speed EVs, the 187 Special Defense necessary to always survive Modest Raikou's Hidden Power, so that's why you see those numbers instead of 259 and 284 respectively. Enjoy:

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 364HP/296Def (max/min) Metagross: 67-79%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 364HP/296Def (max/min) Metagross: 73-86%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 364HP/296Def (max/min) Metagross: 77-91%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 364HP/296Def (max/min) Metagross: 84-99%

Some Metagross won't max HP (probably the non-CB ones), but Adamant it has 157 Speed with 4EVs which is enough for Swampert and ties it with Weezing (who will probably have a Bold FT this generation since its SpA is only 5 base points lower than its attack and it lost physical Sludge Bomb). You're not killing most Agility Gross without prediction (which makes it a skillful kill) so I'm not going to bother calcing that.


Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 82-97%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 90-106%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 95-111%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 104-122%

The most popular Duggy is expected to be Jolly, of course — but I'm putting Adamant here in the interests of completeness.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (max/min) Tyranitar: 69-82%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (max/min) Tyranitar: 76-90%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (max/min) Tyranitar: 80-94%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (max/min) Tyranitar: 88-103%


Pretty much by definition these 404HP variants will likely have used the very Substitute that requires those 252 HP EVs at least once before Dugtrio comes in, so that's of note.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Aerial Ace on a 302HP/186Def (4EVs/min) Heracross: 103-121%

Won't bother calcing the rest of the AA ones, but I will do this:

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/123Def (4EVs/min Def lowered via In Fight) Heracross: 55-65%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 302HP/123Def (4EVs/min Def lowered via In Fight) Heracross: 61-71%

If at all possible, if CBed, use EQ instead of AA, because even if that'll bring in a flier or Levitator it's better than getting owned by Tyranitar or Metagross like you would be if you'd used AA. This is a phenomenon that is somewhat familliar from Advance, but Pursuit changes the desire to use EQ on Heracross.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 401HP/280Def (near-max/half) Jirachi: 64-75% (33-38% with Reflect in play)
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 401HP/280Def (near-max/half) Jirachi: 70-83% (36-42% with Reflect in play)
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 401HP/280Def (near-max/half) Jirachi: 74-87% (37-44% with Reflect in play)
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 401HP/280Def (near-max/half) Jirachi: 81-95% (41-48% with Reflect in play)

Will probably be a metagame poke that Duggy would love to take down so these numers are good to know.

Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Blissey: 40-47%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Life Orbed Earthquake on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Blissey: 44-51%
Jolly, 254 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Blissey: 46-54%
Adamant, 279 Attack Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake on a 688HP/130Def (60%/max) Blissey: 50-59%

Blissey's IB does 74-87% on a 211Hp/187SpD Duggy with the 212 SpA reflected above. And I'd never thought I'd hear myself say this, but I am actually tired of running numbers — these should be more than enough regarding the stuff that matters.

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I'm a stickler for tradition so I'm going to keep the same format...I think it's easier to read a post like that (if you're indeed going to read it lol) than if I did it with two spaces, but it'd probably be even easier if I just italicied them so whatever

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One thing that may be going for CB duggy, is that with the creation of AG, alot of pokemon have the potential of doing an AG set with TBolt, which dugtrio would love to switch into. Especially since TBolt is a pretty common special attack.

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Um, any sort of Dugtrio can abuse that, not just the CB version.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat stl8008  
One thing that may be going for CB duggy, is that with the creation of AG, alot of pokemon have the potential of doing an AG set with TBolt, which dugtrio would love to switch into. Especially since TBolt is a pretty common special attack.

Oh god; I just realized the gayness of the situation.

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Unfortunately, some of the Pokemon that seem likely to be using a CG Thunderbolt are immune to Arena Trap (Zapdos, Gengar, Rotom).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Phuquoph  
Unfortunately, some of the Pokemon that seem likely to be using a CG Thunderbolt are immune to Arena Trap (Zapdos, Gengar, Rotom).

Gengar and Rotom dislike Pursuit Duggy. As to Zapdos, well, unless Dugs has Stone Edge it can't really deal with Zapdos anyway.

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Dugtrio can also come in on Adherance Scarf Thunderbolt if anything...and it can also die to Adherance Scarf anything if unexpected. It's like he's in a minefield.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight  
Gengar and Rotom dislike Pursuit Duggy. As to Zapdos, well, unless Dugs has Stone Edge it can't really deal with Zapdos anyway.

Where does Pursuit fit on your Life Orb Dugtrio that already can't decide between Stone Edge and Blade Test for its fourth move?

My point is that Tyranitar and Hercross not only don't really have to overspecialize at all to put Pursuit on their movesets, they get better by doing so, while most of the propositions for Dugtrio, in the face of this realization, make it worse with regard of some of the things it was called upon to do in Advance (2HKO Blissey, OHKO CB Tyranitar, etc)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16  
Where does Pursuit fit on your Life Orb Dugtrio that already can't decide between Stone Edge and Blade Test for its fourth move?

My point is that Tyranitar and Hercross not only don't really have to overspecialize at all to put Pursuit on their movesets, they get better by doing so, while most of the propositions for Dugtrio, in the face of this realization, make it worse with regard of some of the things it was called upon to do in Advance (2HKO Blissey, OHKO CB Tyranitar, etc)

Duggy is now going to have the 4 moveslot syndrome, so what Duggy has in and of itself (other than the obvious EQ) is going to be a mystery. This is a mixed bag of course, on the one hand your foe won't know if you can take it out until its too late, on the other hand you won't be able to take out certain foes.

Basically in DP, Duggy set = @Life Orb or CB, Earthquake + 3 moves.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah  
Dugtrio can also come in on Adherance Scarf Thunderbolt if anything...and it can also die to Adherance Scarf anything if unexpected. It's like he's in a minefield.

Yes, except a minefield blows the living shit out of whatever activated it instead of just dying by itself. That line just made me think of how cool explosion would be on dugtrio...

I'm kind of getting the impression that Dugtrion might not be able to rely on anything (due to horrendous HP, and terrible defense), os what do you guys think of this idea?

When something that dugtrio should kill switches in, just hit it with one move from the pokemon that you would ordinarily switch out. Then, after you do your rather unorthodox attack, bring in a focus stripped dugtrio, as it will survive ANY attack, and then be able to KO (hopefully) its weakened target.

This is admittedly unfeasible, but what else should I suggest about a triad of cocks sticking out of the earth?

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This is unfortunately an old thread, so I appologize for posting on it, but I wanted to point out that Dugtrio's usefullness comes from his ability to mess up your opponents strategy by instantly killing one of his main pokemon. This generally cripples his ability to switch in counters for your other pokemon, giving you an advantage

With the loss of Choice Band for Life Orb, he would essentially lose his ability to instantly KO most pokemon(as stated above by Jumpman16 in his exhaustively researched post), making him just a 'finishing-off' attacker.

Choice Band Dugtrio would still be useful against teams that don't have BOTH Heracross and Tyranitar, since you could kill one pokemon, and seriously damage another before you die(ie: use Earthquake to kill, and earthquake against the opponents Pursuit pokemon).

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If I was forced to use Dugtrio, I'd use Life Orb, simply because I don't like restricting my moves.

Choice Banders/Scarfers really only get one attack on me since I always have my team setup to be immune/resist as many things as possible and still be effective at attacking at the same time.
So if a CBer uses EQ, you can rest assured I *will* have a levitating or flying pokemon out next, if it uses Aerial Ace, rest assured I *will* have a defensive rock pokemon out next.. etc..
I assume other people do the same thing and so I don't feel safe using a Choice Band since it's like.. strong hit/kill, then it's time for the enemies resistant/immune pokemon to setup..

Life Orb is infinitely better than a choice item, in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't like Life Orb or recoil attacks either.
I ain't emo. >_o

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Well, if Dugtrio stays in on that Pursuit Heracross, when you factor in Sand Stream and a potential Spikes / Stealth Rock Damage, CB EQ just might kill Heracross as Dugtrio survives 1 Pursuit.

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If I was using Dugtrio, I'd use it with Spikes + Stealth Rock support, since whatever comes in and tries to revenge kill you afterwards will be hurt, making Dugtrio's 2HKO an OHKO. I'd use Life Orb too.

IMO, people won't be using him much at all. The best use I can see for it (other than randomly being put somewhere to revenge kill) is on "weather teams", like Rain Dance, to get Tyranitar out of the way so he doesn't interrupt your Rain Dance.

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SR + spikes + sandstream with CB dugtrio would work well... but it all depends on team needs. CB has advantages and so has life orb. If you need CB to OHKO something, and have something else to counter pursuit t-tar or something, than you probably don't want to lsoe the extra attackpower. 10% damage of a life orb on dugtrio won't really do much. So the freedom to switch attacks or more attack power depends on your team needs.

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this is a good topic but bumping was pretty unnecessary

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Shed Skin and more importantly Choice Scarf (as Mekkah had stated half a year ago!) had really cut down in its effectiveness. CBDuggy is still great to trap obvious shit like CBTars and unboosted Electivire ... but stuffs like Heatran and Heracross are a little hazy in what their holding.

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With Encore support, it doesn't even need to be a REVENGE kill though, it can just be annoying (for the opponent ), and not many things use Shed Skin for Dugtrio, they just use it for Magnezone.

If it's paired with a Shuckle, then Shuckle can just Encore an electric move, and then Dugtrio comes in for the kill. Heh, I'll admit, it doesn't take a huge amount of prediction to use, but it wins battles man.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat stealth_viper  
This is unfortunately an old thread, so I appologize for posting on it, but I wanted to point out that Dugtrio's usefullness comes from his ability to mess up your opponents strategy by instantly killing one of his main pokemon. This generally cripples his ability to switch in counters for your other pokemon, giving you an advantage

With the loss of Choice Band for Life Orb, he would essentially lose his ability to instantly KO most pokemon(as stated above by Jumpman16 in his exhaustively researched post), making him just a 'finishing-off' attacker.

Choice Band Dugtrio would still be useful against teams that don't have BOTH Heracross and Tyranitar, since you could kill one pokemon, and seriously damage another before you die(ie: use Earthquake to kill, and earthquake against the opponents Pursuit pokemon).

This, along with Obi's post, are great points as to why Choice Band is still a great option, and in my opinion, the better choice(No pun intended). Dugtrio is meant to mess up stategies, and although it may end up being a 5-5 situation everytime, it's uses what Dugtrio is best at doing all the way, revenge killing and team support. Along with the support of Aerodactyl and Weavile, Dugtrio can end up being like in chess, an exchange of pieces. If Dugtrio succeeds in what it attemted to do I'm fine, and there are more Pokemon that can furthur strengthen Duggy, like the aforementioned Aerodactyl and Weavile, and Trick users are in enough supply to take off dangerous items.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Bologo  
If it's paired with a Shuckle, then Shuckle can just Encore an electric move, and then Dugtrio comes in for the kill. Heh, I'll admit, it doesn't take a huge amount of prediction to use, but it wins battles man.

And who is crazy enough to use an electric move on shuckle? If you can encore a stat-up move it would work, though.

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I don't see anything crazy about using an Electric move on Shuckle.

I prefer Expert Belt over Life Orb or Choice Band. It makes a great mind game. At this stage in the metagame, the opponent thinks two things when they see Dugtrio - Choice Band or Life Orb. If Dugtrio was to EQ Infernape for the KO, then the opponent sees that there is no Life Orb recoil, then they will be baited into thinking it's Choiced and thus locked into EQ.

Then you've got the upper hand as they could send out a Poke that resists EQ but is weak to Stone Edge/Aerial Ace/Night Slash or whatever moveset you're running.

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Expert Belt cuts his power even MORE though, which is the last thing I want on a Pokemon this frail with 80 Attack.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Blastburner  
And who is crazy enough to use an electric move on shuckle? If you can encore a stat-up move it would work, though.

Shuckle's a Bug/Rock type, not a Ground type, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with using an Electric move to hit Shuckle. The opponent will just use it to do a neutral move...

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作者: [UP]wall    時間: 17/6/2008 02:06 PM
我用剩飯lol
作者: anteater    時間: 17/6/2008 02:21 PM
出場機會不多，不是殺敵就是被殺，剩飯的意義大嗎？現在說的是沙地獄。
另外，提出意見要習慣盡量給上原因...

這篇的意思基本上是，專頭怕追擊，殺對手一隻後可能又給了空檔給對手進攻，不易清場。
而命玉可以換招，較有可能繼續攻擊，但會被對手發現反撞力而沒偷襲效果。
達人腰帶有偷襲效果，對手會誤解是專頭而失算，但相對秒殺力不足。

我在測試達人腰帶，暫時比較可觀的戰蹟是對手上雷鳥擋地震而反在單挑中給石刃砸死了。
作者: mk311111    時間: 17/6/2008 06:36 PM
原帖由 anteater 於 17-6-2008 14:21 發表

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

出場機會不多，不是殺敵就是被殺，剩飯的意義大嗎？現在說的是沙地獄。
另外，提出意見要習慣盡量給上原因...

這篇的意思基本上是，專頭怕追擊，殺對手一隻後可能又給了空檔給對手進攻，不易清場。
而命玉可以換 ...

我選專頭好了，
畢竟牠的用途就是捕獲對手並秒殺，
要專頭才夠力殺敵吧......
作者: toddlam    時間: 17/6/2008 08:08 PM
我係用1hp巾...覺得5夠火力...
作者: PA    時間: 17/6/2008 09:38 PM
原帖由 anteater 於 17/6/2008 02:21 PM 發表

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

出場機會不多，不是殺敵就是被殺，剩飯的意義大嗎？現在說的是沙地獄。
另外，提出意見要習慣盡量給上原因...

這篇的意思基本上是，專頭怕追擊，殺對手一隻後可能又給了空檔給對手進攻，不易清場。
而命玉可以換 ...

三頭對雷鳥用石刃會不會太危險？
用石刃有機會不中，可能會給對手賺了個替身，或是給覺醒冰/草秒殺
作者: Michael198713    時間: 17/6/2008 09:59 PM
我個人認為沙地獄三頭地鼠~還是專愛頭巾較好.....
命玉的確多變化與靈活性高.....但威力始終不足....雖有被追擊殺之可能~但在總合來說~也能說是1換1(如果三地鼠在之前成功捕殺了對手一只....) 地鼠死後~反而也令我方重新獲得了主導權.............
至於餘飯.......憑他耐力.............速攻還是較適合他吧= ="
作者: Monew    時間: 29/6/2008 10:00 AM
專頭+1

看準時機上他擋雷/不太高破壞力的岩屬性攻擊等,然後以他的速度及專頭的破壞力秒人(指咬腳地鼠)

[ 本帖最後由 無聊人=.= 於 29/6/2008 10:54 AM 編輯 ]
作者: gty    時間: 29/6/2008 10:23 AM
然后对方上飞行浮游啥的免费获得一回合free time



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