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標題: [org chem] NMR spec SN1 SN2 reaction [打印本頁]

作者: dolphin_ice    時間: 12/6/2008 09:41 PM
標題: [org chem] NMR spec SN1 SN2 reaction
(PS: 以下...應該最少A-level 程度吧? 不知各國的syllabus)

廢柴的我還未分清楚  substitution 中的 SN1 和 SN2 reaction
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
另外, nmr spec (nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum)
有很大困難...

就是peaks 的數目和各個peak 的高度 (不是指determine已身有多少H 的那個高度...是指 spin spin coupling 那裡)

1. Peaks 的數目
a) 到底何時是"same environment", 何時不是呢?
b) 如果2邊都不同environment, 那個peak 的splitting 是...?

2. Splitting
a) splitting 是看2邊的H數目??
b)2邊不同的話又有多少個splitting
c) 每個splitting 的高度到底是...? 囧rz|||


謝謝 @@|||
希望有人解答 >.<"
作者: fish    時間: 13/6/2008 01:09 AM
原帖由 dolphin_ice 於 12/6/2008 21:41 發表
(PS: 以下...應該最少A-level 程度吧? 不知各國的syllabus)
我還未分清楚  substitution 中的 SN1 和 SN2 reaction

HK A-level 沒有NMR
不清楚甚麼?何時是SN1/SN2還是兩者的分別- -?
Factors determing SN1, SN2, E1, E2
Substrate > Nucleophile(Nu: ) >  Leaving Group ~ Temp.> Solvent

GeneralRule: (只是General Rule而已,取決rxn時仍要考慮所有factors.)
key:
P-primary  S-secondary T-Tertiary  C-Classless
temperature in Celsius scale  RT- room temp.
[table=50%][tr][td]Rxn
[/td][td]Substrate
[/td][td]Nu:
[/td][td]Temp
[/td][td]Leaving Gp
[/td][/tr][tr][td]SN2
[/td][td]P, S, C
[/td][td]Good, but not too basic
[/td][td]Low
[/td][td]Want Good
[/td][/tr][tr][td]E2
[/td][td]P, S, T
[/td][td]Bulky or Strong
[/td][td]High (~180 for P, slight heat for S, T)
[/td][td]Want Good[/td][/tr][tr][td]SN1
[/td][td]S, T
[/td][td]both:Good, but not too basic
T only:weak Nu:
[/td][td]Low (RT or lower for T)
[/td][td]Want Good[/td][/tr][tr][td]E1
[/td][td]S, T
[/td][td]Weak Nu:
[/td][td]High
[/td][td]Want Good[/td][/tr][/table]
Solvent:
Solvent affects Nucleophilicity
polar protic - nucleophilicity go against basicity (because the weak bases(Br-, I-) are less solvated and less slowed down)
polar aprotic and non-polar solvent - nucleophilicty follows basicity (Be careful about non-polar solvents, they sometimes form 2 layers which will slow down the rxn, but they speed up SN2 theoretically (and E2))

Explanation:

Rate-determining step(RDS)
SN1/E1 :  formation of carbocation
SN2:  Nu:attack (backside of) substrate and leaving group leave
E2: 看圖好了...一堆steps-w-[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖


Anything that can lower the Ea for the RDS can speed up the rxn.
Primary and classless carbocations are relatively unstable and have high Ea as oppose to secondary and tertiary due to hyperconjugation(donation of e- density by R groups).
So, primary and classless can't do SN1 or E1.
Also, classless substrates just have one carbon atom. They can't do elimination.
Because strong bases are too reactive, they will not allow carbocations to form. Therefore strong bases favor SN2/E2 while weak bases favor SN1 and E1.
Bulky bases are very special. Due to their bulkiness, they can't or very hard to substitute. Also, bulky bases are usually strong, carbocation can't form, making E2 as the dominant rxn.

Shifting:[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

In SN1 and E1, if we can shift to a more stable carbocation (secondary --> tertiary or five member ring --> six member ring), shifting will occur and the product would be different

Products:
In SN1, because carbocations are trigonal planar, the nucleophile can attack top and bottom. Racemic mixture would from if there are chiral centers.
In SN2, as the Nu: attack from the back, there will be a shift in chiral center (R-->S or S-->R).

這樣大概夠用了吧

The followings are only applicable for basic NMR courses that interpret AX spectra with lots of equivalence. These rules are not necessary applicable for AB or AM spectra which the reality does usually.
1. Peaks 的數目
a) 到底何時是"same environment", 何時不是呢?
b) 如果2邊都不同environment, 那個peak 的splitting 是...?

2. Splitting
a) splitting 是看2邊的H數目??
b)2邊不同的話又有多少個splitting
c) 每個splitting 的高度到底是...? 囧rz|||


以下全是1HNMR

1a, [看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

同色的的H 是in the same environment (or equivalent)
有symmetry (紅線) 就有equivalent H

Green:一邊有X,一邊有黑H,再向黑H那邊移就大家都看到藍H,大家沿路所見的都是一樣,所以是chemically equivalent
Black: 一邊有綠H,一邊有藍H, 向綠H那邊走大家都看到X大家沿路所見的都是一樣,所以是chemically equivalent

1b
兩邊的H不是equivalent的話,splitting 位置及height會不同
以黑H來說,它會比藍H 較downfield,因為它更近X
因左右的H都是不同,所以splitting height 不再是1:2:1,但仍會是個Triplet

2a,
splitting 是看3條sigma bond內的H (exception -OH, -OH中的H「看」不到大家,大家也「看」不到它)

2b,
splitting 是看有多少個 H於3個sigma bond範圍內,看到多少隻H就有多少個splitting
e.g.[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

藍格中的H看到共6粒equivalent H, 所以是septet

2c,
splitting height 是以 Pascal's triangle 作basic form, 再因看到的H是否equivalent面有所改變
以pentet 為例:
[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

B0是 NMR 的 Magnet
上面的小b0(arrow)是 atom內的 spinning (向右=upfield), 4個arrow為一set 的原因是看到4個H(i.e. split by 4 H)
將全部的possibilities list出來就知為何pentet 的base form是這了

懂用Coupling Constants 來畫chicken-wire diagram的話亦會特到同樣效果
Chicken-wire diagram對於interpret 更深的(尤是non-equivalent/ chiral/ AB) spectra時才是王道, 上面的方法會很多時失效

還是多手一下:
說NMR時指明是哪一種吧.....有proton NMR, 13C NMR, boron, phosphorus,etc.的嘛- -

[ 本帖最後由 fish 於 10/3/2009 03:44 AM 編輯 ]
作者: dolphin_ice    時間: 13/6/2008 03:19 PM
proton nmr

想問一問, splitting 的高度irregular的話是怎樣計出來的?
原因好像是因H的2邊不同所致..?

~~~~~~~~~~
你做professor 的話, 你的學生有福了... *茶*
作者: abc666    時間: 13/6/2008 05:12 PM
可不可以再簡單地說說甚麼是sn2~.~?
今天考chem在一條問rate of reaction & order or reaction的題目看到這三隻字時囧了
從未見過此東東...
上面那堆東東又看不明~.~
作者: fish    時間: 14/6/2008 09:31 AM
原帖由 abc666 於 13/6/2008 17:12 發表
可不可以再簡單地說說甚麼是sn2~.~?
今天考chem在一條問rate of reaction & order or reaction的題目看到這三隻字時囧了
從未見過此東東...
上面那堆東東又看不明~.~


S - Substitution
N - Nucleophile
2 - bimolecular
SN2 - Bimolecular Nucleophilic substitution
rate = k[substrate] [Nucleophile]

Substitution 是指某個atom/ group被別的 atom/group 取代了
Nucleophile 是Nucleus seeking particle, 泛指Lewis Base
合起來就是-原本的organic molecule (substrate)中的某個atom/ group被Nucleophile取代了
[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖


OH- 的位置被Br- (Nucleophile)取代了
所以是SN類的reaction
想問一問, splitting 的高度irregular的話是怎樣計出來的?
原因好像是因H的2邊不同所致..?

我只知base form的計算方法, irregular height 的我不懂計算
做多點題目及看多點後就發現若兩邊的H是non-equivalent的話,有時是會有點irregular的,較明顯的irregular height 可於下面的example見到
這些irregularities在我的書中也只是輕輕說過...所以不知太多
[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖

紅色的H可看到2個H,理應是triplet,但事實出來卻是Quartet 且高度奇怪
因為啡H跟藍H是 non-equivalent (cis/ trans問題),所以紅H先被藍H split完後,會再被啡H split,造成"doublet of doublet"而看似quartet
splitting pattern:
[看不到圖可按我]

                               
登錄/註冊後可看大圖


放多條link~當初學1HNMR時覺得不錯用的:
http://www.wfu.edu/~ylwong/chem/nmr/h1/
------
另提一提如果Primary substrate是bulky的話,SN1是有可能的(shifting involved)
benzyl substrate 雖是primary 但可以做SN1及SN2,原因為 benzylic carbocation 有resonance (SN1) 及 primary (SN2)

[ 本帖最後由 fish 於 14/6/2008 10:27 AM 編輯 ]
作者: abc666    時間: 14/6/2008 06:50 PM
那題給了兩個reactant和rate的value,要計rate constant
結果撞對了
作者: dolphin_ice    時間: 15/6/2008 10:27 PM
irregular splitting 教授也只是輕輕帶過...
根本沒有足夠的明白時間

PS: 你也要讀 O chem 和 anatomy 了? 這2科讀死人的... 我的 V. Anatomy 啊~~
對了, mammals的腦之中海豚的腦最古怪
作者: fish    時間: 15/6/2008 11:49 PM
原帖由 dolphin_ice 於 15/6/2008 22:27 發表
irregular splitting 教授也只是輕輕帶過...
根本沒有足夠的明白時間

PS: 你也要讀 O chem 和 anatomy 了? 這2科讀死人的... 我的 V. Anatomy 啊~~
對了, mammals的腦之中海豚的腦最古怪

Human Anatomy~我只需劏貓與看slide等物+認structures....
應沒有其他Mammal 可劏-w-

我的是O chem第三個(final) quarter了....要考ACS(American Chemistal Society) Exam,包含以往學過的所有O chem~_~  (但總比PCAT[Pharmacy School Admission Test]好)

Professor說過如果想對NMR更深入的話是有專course讀的,有興趣可找找看@@....但我校沒有(炸
作者: dolphin_ice    時間: 16/6/2008 01:50 AM
原帖由 fish 於 15/6/2008 11:49 PM 發表

Human Anatomy~我只需劏貓與看slide等物+認structures....
應沒有其他Mammal 可劏-w-

我的是O chem第三個(final) quarter了....要考ACS(American Chemistal Society) Exam,包含以往學過的所有O ch ...

看slides 的我們分另一個course, 叫組織學, 明年讀
現在的Anatomy 是背全身所有骨, 肌肉, 血管, 神經...邊種動物冇x 骨有y 骨,,,邊種動物個spinal chord 每節幾多舊骨...etc...
我地d course 好搞笑, 好多都係1個sem (general chem 係sem1, O chem sem2),  最多2個sem (anatomy)
作者: fish    時間: 2/7/2008 12:00 PM
趁未夠一個月推一推a.a
對NMR有與趣又有時間的話,可找本由CRC press 出版的 Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy Volume I-III (Author: Pal Sohar)
深綠色, hard cover

全Set 有3本
Volume I 有談及basic theories,包括complex splitting patterns及height (內含不少數式constant, including calculus)
Vol. II focus於不同functional groups 及 13C, 19F, oxygen, phosphorus NMR
Vol. III 有題目做

但此書乃1986年之產物
有些math/ chem 的用字/ symbols會與現在有點出入
作者: dolphin_ice    時間: 2/7/2008 07:53 PM
謝推

...要重修 @@|||| 新教授真的是新教授...
作者: abc666    時間: 24/2/2009 10:34 PM
由於打不開帖子的關係,所以我找了abc666哥哥替我(fish)post以下內容 =]

事先聲明,看不明以下內容我會盡量去答,但連我(fish)自己也未必可以正確解答到
偶的professor也說他不完全且不需完全明白NMR theory去解NMR spectra,所以我也不能確定自己的explanation是否完全正確啦 (被打

在看之前我想說我在#2 post的rules是沒有問題的,chemicalequivalence (environment) 也是可以如此去tract的,對於分析simple spectra 亦是沒有問題的
下文亦只是補充內容,對於Basic的Organic chem只為參考之用
---------------------------------------------------
對於此帖#2的halobenzene 例子,我想說因為今個quarter讀了一班專讀spectroscopy的班而發現自己用了最爛(?)的例子  (雖然個人認為ring + chiral + aromatic + 19 F + 31P 等物可以令例子更爛-w-)

爛的主因是benzene ring,解釋如下:

1. When two protons are in the samechemicalenvironment (as illustrated in the halobenzene example), they will bechemicallyequivalent.

2. A proton sometimes couples with protons that are within 4 or more sigma bonds. This is known as long-range coupling, which usually occurs in ring systems and allylic systems. Although long-range couplings usually have small coupling constants (1 to 2), it can go up to 8, which is the same as alkyl proton-alkyl proton coupling.

3.Chemicalequivalence does NOT necessarily meanmagneticequivalence. Two protons are said to bemagneticallyequivalent when they couple with the same atom with the same coupling constant. If two protons are notmagneticallyequivalent, they will show different splitting patterns around the same region.
As in the halobenzene example, the top green H will couple to the grey H next to it in an ortho- manner while the bottom green H will couple to that grey H in a para- manner. Thus, the two green protons are chemically equivalent BUT not magnetically non-equivalent.

總合以上三點,我當初的用字應改為samechemicalenvironment
而long range coupling 及magnetically non-equivalence 亦解釋了為何”When there is a bunch of junk around 7ppm, I would think about aromatic compounds.”

而對於之前有關irregular height 的問題,我想補充一下:

1. An NMR spectrum is said to be first order when the coupled protons are chemically equivalent and ∆ν/ J is greater than 10.** (∆ν is the distance between 2 signals while J is the coupling constant)
∆ν is positively related to the (external magnetic) field strength.
J is a constant that depends on the molecule.
** The value 10 does not guarantee if a spectrum is first order or not; it is just an approximation.

2. First order spectra are always symmetric, and the peak heights follow the rule of Pascal triangle.

3. When coupled to chemically and/ or magnetically non-equivalent protons, the peaks would have higher chance to have ∆ν/ J less than 10 (not first order).

4. If the spectrum is NOT first order, the rule of height by Pascal triangle would be violated.

大概就是以上了…..我只是想補完(?)一下欠缺的東東而已....要咀咒吐糟的隨便
我已盡量寫得簡易了-w-






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